Crystal Talk
Text: Amber SayahPhotos: Klaus Mellenthin, Roland Halbe

Interview

Interview lro

LEDERER + RAGNARSDÓTTIR + OEI
Their temperaments complement one another: Arno Lederer, laid back, given to mockery, and Jórunn Ragnarsdóttir, lively, strong-willed, are a well-rehearsed team, not only in the office but also in real life. Marc Oei, the man with the Chinese roots and the Swabian dialect, is the quiet, reserved third party in the partnership. In the bureau's meeting room with its spartan furniture they all join me for a somewhat rare joint interview.


You work in a very built-up area in the west of Stuttgart, in a 1950s office building. Did you move in here because the house’s rather dated charm appealed to you?

Lederer
No, the rooms are not particularly practical but the rent is very low. This is a factor for us because we always work on incredibly tight budgets. Anything that we don't have to spend here we can invest in the projects.

Ragnarsdóttir
These really are not our ideal rooms, more a kind of non-rooms. We often discuss the pros and cons of this kind of division into individual offices. I would prefer an open-plan office.

Oei
But the location is fabulous; I am not so terribly dissatisfied.

How many staff do you employ?

Lederer
At the moment 25; architects, interns and one secretary. Our payroll is relatively constant, most of our employees have a firm contract.


Ragnarsdóttir
This way, everybody knows where they stand and it makes for a pleasant working environment.

But this being the case, your order book does not seem to be in particularly bad shape.

Oei
Nevertheless, what we lack in our projects is a real money-spinner. But parallel to any projects we are working on we are permanently participating in competitions, some 14 per year, and for these, too, we also need the assistance of our staff.

Are competitions the economic backbone of your bureau or are you also increasingly receiving direct commissions?

Lederer
No, the main basis of our projects is competitions. We also have two or three direct commissions, but for some reason or other such jobs always run into trouble.


How long has this partnership being existence or, to put it another way, what was it that brought you together?

Lederer
The bureau was set up in 1979 with a colleague called Sambeth. However, we parted company fairly quickly, basically because we two had no work to do.

Ragnarsdóttir
In 1982, while I was working on my degree dissertation, I met Arno. Given the theme of my degree dissertation he asked me if I would enter a competition for a kindergarten in Tübingen with him. Afterwards we decided that we had to continue the successful working relationship, as in our very first competition we won first prize. It was because of this that we got married immediately afterwards as otherwise, being a foreigner, I would have had to leave the country. Then, in 1985, I came aboard as a partner.


Lederer
She proposed to me.

Ragnarsdóttir
Yes, and why not? For me it was a very practical matter.

Oei
I joined the bureau in 1988 as an employee. I did my degree with Arno and started two weeks before submitting my thesis. After four years I played with the idea of leaving but then the way things go … I stayed and became a partner.

You all studied in Stuttgart. Is this background a factor in your architecture?

Lederer
No, our professors and the courses themselves were simply too varied for this to be the case.

Ragnarsdóttir
Our approach to architecture developed gradually and is still a living process. We have grown together over time.

But people would never even team up, would they, without a certain basic consensus.


Lederer
To begin with, there was a consensus about the fact that winning the competition was only the start of a long journey. Without a doubt, it is typical of our bureau that projects change dramatically after the competition. This has been one of our guiding principles since the bureau was established. Architecture is a process of development and the project is not finished until the very end.

How do you work together? Do you divide up responsibilities in a certain way?

Lederer
With us, things like that are relatively disorganized. Though there is no clear division of labor, there are certain emphases. Each one of us is responsible for some of the unpleasant duties. Jórunn, for example, has to look after financial matters...


Oei
And disputes are usually my job.

Are you a good arbitrator?

Oei
You have to enjoy that sort of thing. And there really was a period in my life when I thought I would study law. For me, it's a kind of hobby. For example, in the evenings I like to browse through the Federal Court of Justice’s website.

Lederer
I am the one who has the meetings with the developers and has to go and see the municipal councils – which at times can be unpleasant.

Ragnarsdóttir
Arno has the strongest outside presence of all of us. He is really wonderfully talented as an actor, something that helps him immensely in presenting our ideas and our stance to other people.


How do you approach design?

Lederer
I have to admit that our working methods are rather different. Mark Oei handles his competitions alone, he wants to draft everything himself. I am somewhere in the middle and Jórunn works with the staff.

Oei
With the smaller competitions it is quicker to do things yourself. In the case of large competitions that is impossible, of course.

Would you take on projects after relinquishing them after the blueprint planning?

Lederer
We have two or three projects where things unfortunately went that way. One of them was the conversion of a commercial building in Stuttgart. We ultimately planned the whole façade all the way through, although we never received any payment for it. This method of working is simply inefficient and, above all, unsatisfactory.

Oei
Which is why we don't take on projects like that on principle, and we say this at the outset, when we are invited to take part in competitions.

Has it become more difficult over the years to hold your ground on the market with this attitude?

Lederer
You can’t really say that. The economic situation has certainly become more difficult, which means that our fees are in a downward spiral and that there is less money available in general, although the prices for materials and for workmen have gone up. The divide is growing constantly. As a result it is becoming more difficult to tell developers that we have changed our mind about certain things during the planning process, because then they immediately say: why didn't you think of that straightaway?


Ragnarsdóttir
But this common outlook, this idea of rethinking and changing everything right up until the end is typical of us. I see this as a strength, rather than a weakness.


Are there any particular types of construction jobs that you prefer? In recent years you have designed a conspicuously large number of schools.

Lederer
That is just chance. We for our part are not looking for that kind of specialization. We occasionally do a bathroom and other little jobs crop up repeatedly.

Ragnarsdóttir
But of course we do keep doing school competitions. Last year we won a school in Aschersleben, one in Cologne … to a certain extent the design work has become more economical. Analyzing the location still represents a lot of work, whereas the spatial program of the school itself is increasingly easy to handle. We have simply had more practice. But even then, we are still a long way away from the actual architecture.

Lederer
But we are the kind of architects who look at new jobs thoroughly and from all angles. Even in the case of school construction. Moreover, the didactic aspect is also important here. Does the building achieve the objectives of training social competence? Or is the only goal to implement school building guidelines?

But to go back to your approach to architecture: a few years ago there was an exhibition on your bureau entitled "Inside is different from outside". That is a statement with which you place yourselves in diametrical opposition to the lightness and transparency of the post-War southern German tradition.

Lederer
Indeed, that was something that preoccupied us from the outset, the fact that today people no longer seem to need facades, and that specific space accordingly disappears. Or, it is everywhere.

Ragnarsdóttir
And what we want to do above all is to design space.


Lederer
This all comes down to the difference between Corbusier and Mies. With Mies there are always those four toothpicks and two beer mats, you can't look up or down. With that kind of architecture of course it is necessary for the facade to be non-existent. With Corbusier things are quite different; with him you go in and always look up and down.

Ragnarsdóttir
It is also decisive that we avoid the kind of self-referential architecture that announces: look at me, how different I am from everything else. Our objective is always to integrate the building in such a way that we take the whole district into consideration. We attempt to analyze the structure and to enhance the value of existing buildings.

Another of your trademarks is your approach to materials. You often use quite normal materials but the context in which they are employed allows them to appear unusual and innovative.


Ragnarsdóttir
We prefer materials that people can get their hands on because they feel good and maybe awaken memories. But at the same time, we are environmentally conscious. For example, it is well known that manufacturing aluminum is a great strain on the environment. Bearing this in mind you cannot use aluminum, or at least only in cases where there is a good reason to do so, for example, in the aviation industry. But there is no justification for having to use aluminum in architecture.

And what are your views on ecology in general?


Ragnarsdóttir
There is a connection between materiality and our attitude to technology. As such it gives us a great deal of pleasure if there are things that you can turn or pull or flap open, little, subtle things. But what we don't like – and this is the difference – are dumb things. It is just so completely un-erotic and un-tactile if everything is automated. Why shouldn't we use our own physical strength occasionally?

Oei
Another reason for this is that our buildings cannot cost more than other buildings. I believe that if you veto too much technology there is enough funding left over for proper materials and more beautiful architecture. Doing this, I don't even have a bad conscience because I know that it is a more enduring and ecological solution.

Ms. Ragnarsdóttir, do you introduce a different, perhaps even a foreign perspective to the bureau?

Ragnarsdóttir
Without doubt everybody introduces a different perspective. I would never deny or attempt to highlight my nationality, but of course I grew up in a different environment and with other values. In that respect I have been molded in a different way.




Does this also exert an influence on the bureau's architecture?

Oei
I have occasionally heard that in some projects, for examples in Fellbach, people have assumed that the colors came from our Icelandic colleague. This is no more than outside perception and it is not true.


Lederer
But there is something in that. (Turning to Jórunn Ragnarsdóttir:) Back then you turned up with a set of crayons, told me I was boring, and colored the columns red!

Ragnarsdóttir
I was lucky enough to grow up with a Poulsen lamp over the dining table. That is more than you can say about most southern Germans.

Lederer
Icelandic people are incredibly self-confident.

Color was just a cue. But that is something else that people notice about you: your buildings are often unusually colorful.

Ragnarsdóttir
That is relative and an internal bone of contention. We argue a great deal about colors, it is something we enjoy doing.

Lederer
What colors achieve or do not achieve depends largely on the task at hand. It also has something to do with light. Something we like to work with is colored light, with colored glass windows for example, or with reflecting surfaces.


Ragnarsdóttir
But we do not go about it scientifically. We do not rely on any kind of color wheels or color theories, but are simply guided by gut feelings, which is why we can have such wonderful arguments about it.

Lederer
Of course, it is often also a question of money. If there is a little money available we can build with natural stone or brick, then you don't need as much color, then the materials supply the color. At Helvetia in Frankfurt we were able to use natural stone on the outside. On the inside everything is white.

Do you work outside Germany as well? Nowadays it is almost impossible to manage without commissions in China and Dubai.

Lederer
We do not actively look for such commissions. As long as we have work here, that's OK. The quality of the architecture does not depend on location.

Ragnarsdóttir
We are not interested in establishing ourselves as a brand. We are happy about every project that we can also be satisfied with in retrospect. That is what's important.

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