Interview
At the beginning of the conversation you can chose one of these three questions:
1. What do you consider your best work and why?
2. What has hurt you the most?
3. What makes you different from other architects here in Vienna, Austria and the
world?
These are the three questions - everyone will have a turn so it does not
matter which one you choose.
Gerd Erhartt
OK, let’s start with the first.
What do you regard as your best work? Name it, describe it and explain why.
Gerd Erhartt
This is very subjective. “Our best work” by no means implies that it is a good work.
Jakob Dunkl
At present I would put the Museum Liaunig very high on the list, as everything there
turned out pretty well: It is unbelievably efficient, it is poetic, it is radical. When a
building is monumental or makes a strong statement in the landscape it could make
people feel small and insignificant in it. And to our relief this is precisely what did not
happen. I consider this the most important aspect.
Peter Sapp
Actually, for me, the best work category does not exist with regard to your own projects,
as they are subject to your own developmental process. The question should
rather be: Which work means the most to you, and this would be the last one, our last
baby, one that means an awful lot, the Museum Liaunig. But there are others, such as
the street-cleaning brushes in the exhibition “foot in the door”. This also hits the spot.
Jakob Dunkl
Comparing babies with building projects is a fitting comparison: I cannot say which
of my children is my favorite or second favorite. I imagine all parents are the same.
So is it true that you are all really devoted fathers, don’t work overtime, you shut up shop at 5 p.m., and don’t work at weekends?
Gerd Erhartt
That’s right. Since we all had children. I work a 30-hour week
Jakob Dunkl
Even when we go to an architectural discussion in the evening we record every working
hour. On average we work the same number of hours in a year as a normal employee.
In terms of quantity we make a big effort to keep our recreational and family
time high on thr list. It’s up to others to judge whether we are good family fathers.
We look at it as an experiment, and decided that now that we all have children, how
about we work less, and will this affect our careers? We are trying it out and actually
we are satisfied with how it’s working out. In fact I now believe that if we spent more
time in the office we would be less efficient. I see no burnout danger on the horizon -
my family provides a good balance.
Gerd Erhartt
Right from the start we got our employees very much involved. As such there is no
need for us to be here all the time. We value personal initiative and responsibility and
I consider this to be the right way forward. We are not a company that is proud if the
lights are still burning at 9 p.m. We actually consider it rather unpleasant.
Let’s now move on to the second of our initial questions: What has offended you the most?
Peter Sapp
I would not say hurt, but sometimes you get annoyed. We have the models here in
storage and whenever I pass the Linz Opera I feel really annoyed that we did not get
any further with our design. I can’t understand why the project wasn’t built. That
annoys me.
Precisely. You have just answered my question about what hurts you. That pretty much answers the question, doesn’t it?
Peter Sapp
Well, hurt, hmmm.
Annoyance is a symptom of being hurt. What else hurts you - architectural critique for example?
Jakob Dunkl
No, we have been lucky in that we have never been pulled to pieces, never been hurt
by critics.
Does that not make you suspicious?
Jakob Dunkl
Yes, it is a bit strange.
I would like to finish with a question I was planning to ask later: You started off spectacularly, exploding onto the scene with your installations and with architecture that was not too far removed from art - though I do not consider architecture to be art. As a consumer I have noticed that you have become a little more pragmatic. You build in an orderly fashion, all very nice, but without the experiments that are fun, playing games with space etc. There’s a bit o that in the Museum, but otherwise you have become well-behaved house producers. (Quiet) You’re at a loss. Don’t you miss it? Do you not have enough time? Should someone eytend an invitation to you?
Gerd Erhartt
The assignments have changed. As a young company you don’t really have instant
access to building projects. In this stage many architects operate in the field of tension
between art and architecture, with installations. With a certain career behind it the
company grows and we are not given assignments such as these any more.
Jakob Dunkl
That is of course a harsh criticism. It reminds me a bit of what Peter Cook said. In 2004
we received the Young Architect of the Year Award, actually for lots of minor projects.
One reason for selecting us was the humor in our architecture, the relaxed, easy approach.
As chairman of the jury, Peter Cook asked us whether we could transform this
into larger architectural projects, whether it was something we could maintain.
You just don’t make these funny, fresh, refreshing installations and productions any more. Rather you are a company, as it should be, and you have your daily routines to be getting on with. Do you have the feeling that you lost this humor, which was certainly typical of your earlier works, because the everyday world of architecture is a rather humorless one? It wipes the smile from one’s face, so to speak?
Peter Sapp
I wouldn’t say that. There are always considerations, like with a large residential
building we are currently working on. We are trying to stimulate the superimposition brought by users to the building, by offering small collapsible laundry stands which
can be mounted on the banister. In this way a very large residential building with 150
apartments suddenly receives a layer of fluttering tights, socks and underwear. This is
an example of playful additions. If I think about Adidas, about building a high-performance
machine for a company, the assignment allows less such playfulness.
What are you working on at the moment? Regardless of how much fun it is.
Gerd Erhartt
At the moment we are mainly working on public housing
Jakob Dunkl
We decided to have a break from competitions and the majority of direct contracts
happened to be in the field of residential buildings. We now notice that we are keen
to get involved in other projects. Residential architecture is enjoyable and fun, but we
would not feel fulfilled if that’s all we did.
Does that mean that competitions are not just an opportunity for acquisition but sort of fun for the company?
Peter Sapp
Only in a very small dose. It can be rather frustrating as well when you put a lot of
effort into something and then have to shoot in the air in the hope that you actually
hit something.
Fun at a price.
Jakob Dunkl
The fun comes when you get an appealing assignment. It doesn’t have to be a competition
as far as we’re concerned. In fact competitions aren’t really the way to go for
us as we have noticed that what particularly appeals to us is when we can search for
the target together with the client or define the assignment with him. In the case of
competitions you get a target, everyone has to shoot in that direction and a few hit
the bulls-eye. This is what doesn’t particularly appeal to us. Also, it is a completely
absurd exploitation of our profession.
Gerd Erhartt
The relationship between what the profession architect actually generates and what
you get back in return is absolutely absurd.
Peter Sapp
Our main motive is building itself. We want to design only what we can then build.
Given this perspective competitions are not really our thing.
Jakob, what you just said about clients and identifying the target reminds me of something Richard Neutra once said: he feels like a psychoanalyst who attempts to penetrate the client’s subconscious in order to come up with what is best for him. Can you identify with this?
Jakob Dunkl
There is something in that.
Gerd Erhartt
It is important to understand the motive for someone wanting to do something. If
you recognize this you can perhaps deliver different solutions. We consider this a part
of our job, an important task: To redefine the task from the very outset.
Peter Sapp
We also consider reaching a common denominator, moving forward together with
the client as one of our special features. You can’t do that in a competition.
I recently gave a lecture in Munich on psychoanalysis and architecture during which, among other things, I showed the Museum Liaunig. I maintained that it features a lot of what can be described as erotic symbolism in construction. There is a vaginal element, a uterus, and a a phallic element, aspiring to get back into the ground.
Jakob Dunkl
That’s hard to deny.
Peter Sapp
Although we didn’t really consider this.
Jakob Dunkl
But it’s true: There’s the small vagina, the guest apartment. And an emergency exit
vagina too.
The museum also has an internal appendix.
Jakob Dunkl
The gold collection.
So the body metaphor is quite applicable.
Jakob Dunkl
When we are working we tend to think about different metaphors.
Which ones?
Peter Sapp
At Museum Liaunig we came across two pieces of ground and a flattened hill between
them, this plateau. We came up with the idea of placing the exhibition room as
a sort of bypass between the two sections of ground and thus offering the visitor the
chance to arrive at both pieces of land on his tour, and to perceive the outside.
Where do metaphors come from? Are they created before the design, before the visible form, or afterwards? Are the metaphors important for a project, as guidelines?
Jakob Dunkl
Sometimes this is so. For the Römermuseum am Hohen Markt we sought images
which illustrated what we wish of a museum. A photograph for the caption “arouse
curiosity” depicted somebody opening a barn door. A beam of light penetrated the
opening, which was just a few centimeters wide. The photo constituted a metaphor
at the beginning of the process and ultimately we covered the facade of the Römermuseum with aluminum panels. The slits admit a little light and allow you to peep in
the museum from outside.
Vienna, an observer of history. To recapitulate, the metaphor certainly has its uses.
Peter Sapp
Yes. It often happens gradually or overlaps with other metaphors. A metaphor you
start off with may become less important as things proceed and be superseded by
others.
Jakob Dunkl
One metaphor displaces another and a metametaphor arises, a metametametametaphor.
Peter Sapp
That’s getting a little too complicated.
Anna Soucek was born in Vienna and studied History of Art and Philosophy. She has curated exhibitions such as “stadt in sicht: Neue Kunst aus Bratislava” (City in View: New Art from Bratislava) and “Niemandsland. Modelle für den öffentlichen Raum” (No Man’s Land: Models for public Spaces”. She is a co-founder of the “forum experimentelle architektur” (experimental architecture forum) and works on the editorial staff of Radio Österreich1 for the Austrian broadcasting corporation ORF in Vienna.
Jan Tabor was born in Podebrady in the Czech Republic and lives and works in Vienna as
an architectural theorist, publisher, and curator. The exhibitions he has curated include
“Kunst und Diktatur” (Art and Dictatorship), “den fuß in der tür“, (a foot in the door)
“mega: manifeste der anmaßung” (mega: manifestos of arrogance) and most recently
“Die Enzyklopädie der wahren Wert” (The Encyclopedia of true Values). Jan Tabor teaches
in Zaha Hadid’s studio, at the Academy of Applied Art and the Academy of Visual Arts
in Bratislava. He was a co-founder of “forum experimentelle architektur” (experimental
architecture forum), has given numerous lectures and published widely in Germany and
abroad.
project management: Andrea Nakath